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| how deep does dye penetrate? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6328 |
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| Author: | ecklesweb [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:38 am ] |
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Working from an idea in the "how few $$$ to build an inexpensive guitar" thread, I'm using bindings cut from practice sides of the same species as my back/side set (sapele for what it's worth). I would like the bindings to be slightly darker than the back and sides. Obviously stain isn't going to work, because if I stained first, then glued on the binding, I'd lose the color of the stain when scraping flush. I don't want to stain the binding after it's on and scraped because I believe it will bleed even if I mask it, and that's assuming I do a decent masking job. One thought I had is perhaps dye penetrates deep enough that there would still be some color from the dye after I scrape the bindings flush. Anyone know if that's true or not? If I had some dye laying around, I'd just try it, but I have never used a dye before. Folks on the woodworking.com forum suggest an oil-soluble dye powder (the thought being that water-soluble would raise the grain and alcohol-soluble wouldn't penetrate because the alcohol would flash off too quickly). Any ideas? |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:41 am ] |
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Jay Another thought, and maybe it is not the look you are after, but how about just leaving them natural an putting a simple BW or BWB strip between the binding and the sides, I like this look and the purfling can be bought very cheaply. |
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| Author: | rlabbe [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:27 am ] |
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Jay, on that thread I believe you stated an intention of not using purfling. Might I suggest using 1 piece of white purfling for the joint between the side and the binding. This creates a very elegant pinstripe effect, and I think the net result will be much more pleasing to the eye than a dyed piede of wood. It'll probably be cheaper, too, unless you already own the dye powder, which you say you don't. In any case, without pressure steaming the dye into the wood, I don't think you have much chance of dyeing it and getting the color to penetrate evenly through the entire piece. If you can find a cheap or free piece of veneer, you can cut the purling out yourself with an exacto knife and yard stick, otherwise you can spend about a buck per pufling strip from a place like LMI. the multiline mentioned by Russell above are also a good choice, and only a few dollars more (for the entire guitar). |
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| Author: | ecklesweb [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:52 am ] |
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Interesting...so you're saying between the binding and the *side*, not the binding and the *top*. That might indeed be an attractive effect. I see the BW purfling like Russell describes at http://www.lmii.com/ CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp? CategoryName=Bindings+%26+Purflings&NameProdHeader=Fine+Mult i% 2DLine+Purfling+%2D+Double+Length. I might go see how much a sheet of maple or other light veneer would cost at the local woodworking store. If I did that, I'd be tempted to cut the purfling to the shape of the sides so I wouldn't have to try to bend or otherwise unduly pursuade such a thin piece. Speaking of which, how would I go about bending the BW purfling for use between the binding and side? If I go this route, do you think it would also look good to do the purfling between the back and the binding? I almost certainly won't do it between the top and the binding since the rosette is a single, thin circle of sapele. Thanks for the ideas, guys! Jay |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:29 am ] |
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[QUOTE=ecklesweb] Speaking of which, how would I go about bending the BW purfling for use between the binding and side? Jay[/QUOTE] I believe I would glue the purf to the binding with titebond and then bend.....should hold up to the heat ok.. |
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| Author: | crowduck [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:28 am ] |
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This may be a bit OT, but still in keeping with "how few $$$ to build an inexpensive guitar" thread, and binding. Has anyone consider or tried using 'pressboard/Masonite' for binding? I haven't yet, but am thinking about experimenting. With the shiney surface treatment sanded off, it might accept dyes or stains that might penetrate deeply enough for later sanding. I'm just guessing, but I bet it 'bends like butter'. I think it's similar to 'fiber binding' available at luthier suppliers, but would be 'much cheaper'. I think a 4'X8' sheet of Masonite is between $5-$10, cut into strips, that's alot of binding. CrowDuck |
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| Author: | ecklesweb [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:58 am ] |
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I've got to think that masonite is crossing the line from inexpensive to cheap! I'm not a big fan of hardboard for anything that involves sawing or cutting it because it's basically like cardboard underneath the treated surface - really "fuzzy" cuts. I'd think it would bend poorly, and I'm quite certain it would sand and finish poorly. Then again, I'm happy to be proven wrong! (it's been known to happen before from time to time  )
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| Author: | hoosierukes [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:16 pm ] |
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Or how does one pressure dye wood so the color does penetrate? |
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| Author: | Cocephus [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:37 pm ] |
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I did some research on restoring the black keys on pianos a couple years ago, and what I found out was it`s better to dye in a vacuum to draw the dye deeper into the wood. Didn`t try it, but in theory... FWIW, Miss Clarol natural black was recomended. |
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| Author: | Jason [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:22 pm ] |
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There was a rather long discussion about modifying a pressure cooker into a binding dye pot.. Must have been two or three months ago.. Try searching the archives |
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| Author: | rlabbe [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:40 am ] |
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[QUOTE=ecklesweb] Interesting...so you're saying between the binding and the *side*, not the binding and the *top*. That might indeed be an attractive effect. [/QUOTE] Yup, that is absolutely standard in classical guitars, and no reason you can't use it in a steel string. Don't think of it as "cheap" or "economical", but as "elegant" and "restrained". :) For an example, I did some quick browsing. Look at the guitars at the bottom of this page: http://www.rosewoodguitar.com/classic.html Every single one has that single white strip. Don't try to cut the purfling into a guitar shape. Just cut a thin strip slightly thicker than the binding thickness. Use a ruler and exacto knife. Don't try to cut in one slice or the knife will follow the grain line. Take one or two extremely light passes, and you will score a thin line that the knife will follow. A few more light passes and you will have a perfect piece of purfling. Glue it on with superglue if you are in a rush, or any old glue otherwise. When you bend it the purfling will bend with it. it may delaminate in a few places, but you can just push those back in place easy and spot weld with CA glue. |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:44 am ] |
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Bein' a cheap bastid myself, I've tried to dye my own purfling, using curly maple veneer I had cut into purfling strips using a pasta maker. I tried using a pressure cooker with Rit fabric dyes. Well, actually only with one color -- blue. I discovered that Rit's blue dye is sensitive to the higher heat a pressure cooker generates, and breaks down to a greenish-brown color. Yuck. So, I tried cooking dyes -- blue, green, and red -- in the cooker with the lid off, keeping the temp regulated at 150 degrees. I cooked each batch for several hours. Even after this, I found that I was getting minimal penetration with purfling that is only about 0.025" thick. I'm reasonably sure that a pressure cooker would work, but the dyes have to be able to withstand a higher temp than say 250F or so. Also, still on the subject of purfling, I install a 1mm wide (~0.040") single purfling line on my sides and backs. I've been using curly maple for this too. Sometimes, though, I get a bit of bleedover from the surrounding back/side wood (and binding) that will stain the "curls" in the maple. A light wash coat of shellac, carefully applied with a clean muneca, can limit this. I preglue the purfling to the binding before bending. I find that, since sometimes binding needs to be lightly soaked, Titebond II works better for this because of its water resistant properties. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:07 am ] |
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One of my favourite looks in binding is just to use an offcut of the sides and separate them with purfling, holly or other light strip on rosewood or other dark woods and black on lighter woods on the back and sides. White/black or black/white/black on the top according to the side colour. Gives an understated "luthier built" look. Colin |
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| Author: | rlabbe [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:08 am ] |
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I've tried the pressure cooker also with RIT dyes, and they sure don't work. I didn't get a color breakdown, but I got minimal penetration. I ended up leaving several pieces in the solution for a week, cooking it several times in the process, and still it didn't penetrate. |
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| Author: | Mario [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:23 am ] |
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The bindings were cut from the same stock as the sides(read my little rant in the walnut auction thread <bg>). To make them look a bit different, just reverse the grain's direction. Use runout to your advantage! As you turn this guitar, when the side looks dark, the bindings appear lighter, when the sides look lighter, the bindings look darker. Juts like runout does to a top... Subtle can be so cool.... |
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| Author: | Mario [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:24 am ] |
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Up close. |
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| Author: | D.L.Huskey [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:46 am ] |
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Mario, Dang that looks good. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:58 am ] |
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The other thing you could do is go sans binding. I have seen a couple of Frank Finocchio's guitars without binding. He rounded over the top and back (and installed an arm rest bevel) and the effect was really nice. I am not sure how delicate that will make the instrument, but visually it was nice. |
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| Author: | ecklesweb [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:46 am ] |
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I'm almost certainly going to have so-so joints that I want to cover up with binding. I thought that was the whole point of binding!!! 
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| Author: | Larry Davis [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:38 am ] |
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Cooking won't do it, guys. Vacuum to evacuate the wood cells of air and pressure to force the liquids into the wood. Some "deep" penetration will happen as the air evacuates the cells and is replaced by the liquid, but adding a pressure cycle I penetrate thru and thru 2"-ash in about an hour, but that's not the limit by any means. |
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| Author: | Larry Davis [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:27 pm ] |
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This evening while out harvesting a maple burl from a front yard in town the thought occurred to me there might be a need for dyed curly maple , curly ash or whatever for binding stock. I'm already set up with all the right equipment, autoclave with diffusion vacuum pump, pressure chamber, etc for the acrylic impregnated processing I do. I've never been into making binding stock, but the dyed stuff is intriguing if there's a need to be filled. Any advice or comments appreciated. |
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| Author: | Mario [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:58 pm ] |
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Larry, for sure, there's a market, -IF- the color is completely through. It's the only way it will work. Not only bindings, but flame mapled, purflings, rosettes, knife handles, inlay pieces, etc.... If you can dye completely through in vivid colors, wow, the possibilities are endless. I'm rather fussy with my flame maple bindings, as I like them bookmatched, and the flame really tight, but not overly consistent(a bit of inconsistency adds to the look, where 'perfect' figure gets boring on such a little piece). Therefor, I like making my own, and am well setup for it. What I'd love to do is provide you with bindings, sized and numbered, and have them dyed. I'd expect pay the same for the service as I would for completed bindings. But only if the dye goes completely through.... |
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| Author: | Larry Davis [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:31 am ] |
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I'm not thinking individual binding pieces, but "blanks" .375 or .5"x1" wide or so. The luthier can rip his own from that stock. No problem on the dye process as I've done it for years for my knife handle products. 
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| Author: | ecklesweb [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:49 am ] |
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That's beautiful - I see electric guitar body caps... |
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| Author: | Mario [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:11 am ] |
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Way cool. Yes, a 'slice your own' would work well. |
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